DRD Team

I have been a Legacy modder for years, and I am thinking of switching over to GZDooM.

Could you please tell me what GZDooM has got that Legacy doesn't, and give me an idea of how difficult it would be for me to switch?

I am particularly interested in features, such as high res sprites, a feature I have been asking the Legacy team for for almost six years now, models, and slopes.

GZDoom logically supports all of ZDoom's features like slopes, ACS, skyboxes and so on. For these, to get an overview the first place to look would still be the ZDoom Wiki

Hi-res sprites are possible. For existing things it can be set through Dehacked and for new things it is set directly in DECORATE.

Models are currently in the planning stage. I intend the next release to have at least some primitive model support for decorations. Monsters are a little trickier because with the complex behavior that is possible simple state assignments like Doomsday does can become excessively long definitions.

As for switching, that depends. You can go the easy route first and continue to use the features also available in Legacy (3D-floors and FraggleScript) but to exploit the full power you have to familiarize yourself with Hexen's map format and its features. The more advanced things are not accessible from Doom format maps.

Boingo the Clown wrote:a feature I have been asking the Legacy team for for almost six years now, models, and slopes.

six years?

And go for Gzdoom man
How's People's Doom coming along btw?

Graf Zahl wrote:As for switching, that depends. You can go the easy route first and continue to use the features also available in Legacy (3D-floors and FraggleScript) but to exploit the full power you have to familiarize yourself with Hexen's map format and its features. The more advanced things are not accessible from Doom format maps.

GZDooM has faggy script?

That helps. I won't have to learn ACS right away.

Do GZDooM's 3D floors use the same line types as Legacy, or are they different?

Also ... I have been finding the rooms with a lot of (3D sector based)tables and chairs in DeiMWolf slow the game waaaaaay down inLegacy (openGL mode), especially when coronae are present. Does GZDooM have the same problem?

Paul wrote:How's People's Doom coming along btw?

Not well. It has been almost entirely neglected in favour of The Ultimate Chex Quest, and, more recently, DeiMWolf. I am thinking of picking up the project again soon in the future, if only to fiddle around with it a bit.

Go to http://www.doomlegends.com if you want to find out about DeiMWolf and T.U.C.Q..

Boingo the Clown wrote: GZDooM has faggy script?

Nice word!

Do GZDooM's 3D floors use the same line types as Legacy, or are they different?

For Doom format maps it uses the same types as Legacy. How else am I supposed to run Nimrod and Hi-Tech Hell otherwise.

Also ... I have been finding the rooms with a lot of (3D sector based)tables and chairs in DeiMWolf slow the game waaaaaay down inLegacy (openGL mode), especially when coronae are present. Does GZDooM have the same problem?

Slowdowns have many different reasons. 3D floors alone shouldn't contribute too much. Extensive use of dynamic lights can cause slowdowns depending on how they are placed in a map. I haven't seen your WAD though so I cannot say anything more specific.


If you are interested in speed test check this out:

http://forum.drdteam.org/viewtopic.php?t=270

The scene in question is one of the most complex I have ever seen in a Doom map and it seems that nobody so far had any performance issues with it - even with dynamic lights (there are a lot of torches visible.)

I have been working on a project called DeiMWolf, a Wolfenstein mod, for Legacy.

http://www.doomlegends.com/deimwolf/

The problem is that I have not been very happy with Legacy lately, but it is the only port I am used to modding for. I am hoping that as the mod develops, I may be able to do a version for GZDooM, or, if the Legacy team continues to dawdle, switching entirely.

How difficult do you think it would be to convert the project over?

As long as you don't use the 'runcommand' FS function, console commands in the level header, the 'alltrigger' flag for linedefs or z-coordinates in flags it should run as-is.

I looked at your beta project and so far the only thing that probably needs some adjustment either in your code or the engine is the view height setting. The viewheight command should be supported but I haven't tested it yet.

BTW, what's up with Legacy? I thought the 2.0 version is gradually getting closer to becoming stable.

Boingo the Clown wrote:How difficult do you think it would be to convert the project over?

It's not quite something of the same complexity, but for some time I was reluctant to change to the full ZdoomHexen format for my mapping needs. The map format worried me and the scripting, I thought, was simply beyond me. Once I did, however, there was a (fairly) brief period of frustration and learning as I slowed down due to not being able to do things I knew were possible but I didn't know how. Nowadays, I find standard Doom editing very limiting and frustrating.

For a while, during my transition period, I used to do my mapping in standard Doom format and then use the zwadconv tool to convert the map so that I could add the few ZdoomHexen specific features I wanted and, of course, inspect how the various things I'd set up looked in ZdoomHexen format. Nowadays, of course, I just start with ZdoomHexen format from the get-go.

So what I'm saying is, if you do convert, it'd be worth you converting fully and going with the ZdoomHexen format to take full advantage of what (G)Zdoom can do. There is a tool (zwadconv) that should be able to convert your maps - although how it will handle unknown legacy specific stuff I don't know. I suspect you will have quite a bit of post-conversion work, depending on how much legacy specific stuff you have used. All BOOM derived stuff should be fine though.

Once you have your maps converted, you'll be able to easily set the speed and delays of any moving sector type without a need to script them, set any activation type for any line type etc etc. And, of course, ACS is worth getting to grips with. From what I can tell, FS does a lot less than ACS can. However, I've also created a couple of levels for GZdoom where FS and ACS sit side by side because FS can do a couple of things that ACS can't.

What's more, your reputation precedes you. It'd certainly be nice to have an active, respected person like yourself as part of the (G)Zdoom community.

Thanks. You're making me blush.


Where does one find zwadconv?

Here:

http://zdoom.org/files/utils/utils050999.zip

The FS triggers and 3D floor definitions won't be converted though.

Graf Zahl wrote:ABTW, what's up with Legacy? I thought the 2.0 version is gradually getting closer to becoming stable.

I was told that Legacy 2.0 would be released in the spring of 2004, and put DeiM on hold specifically to wait for it.

It has now been over two years since I did that, and only a few months remain until the second aniversary of when 2.0 was scheduled to be released.


For DeiMWolf:

My plan for the moment is to continue working in Legacy format until I reach something I can call 1.0, then get to work on the conversion.

In the mean time, I will probably be a pain in the fleshy gutes by way of popping in to ask apparently silly questions.

A few silly questions to start with:

Are Polyobjects available in DooM mode, or just in Hexen mode?

Does the DECORATE lump work in all modes?

If so, does sprite scaling work in all modes?

For scaled sprites, are the offsets applied at the same scale as the sprite, or at the default size? (i.e. Does an offset of 1 offset by the equivalent of 1 DooM pixel (1.3 inches), or does it offset by the size of 1 pixel at the new scale?)

Can an object added via the DECORATE lump have a corona added to it?
(I am asking this, because the ceiling lights and chandeliers in DeiMWolf are currently created by using frames from the Heretic chandelier in order to use its corona. Since my nonstandard hack editing will likely not work in GZDooM, I will have to find an alternate way of adding these objects.)

Can monsters activate polyobjects?

I'll think of more. Trust me.

Boingo the Clown wrote: Are Polyobjects available in DooM mode, or just in Hexen mode?

Only in Hexen mode. They need a specific setup that doesn't work without linedef arguments.

Does the DECORATE lump work in all modes?

If so, does sprite scaling work in all modes?

Yes and yes. There is no connection to the map format.

For scaled sprites, are the offsets applied at the same scale as the sprite, or at the default size? (i.e. Does an offset of 1 offset by the equivalent of 1 DooM pixel (1.3 inches), or does it offset by the size of 1 pixel at the new scale?)

Offsets are relative to the sprite graphic. Considering that you can use the same sprites with different scaling factors it is the only thing possible (and the only thing any sprite maker can reasonably determine from the graphic.)

Can an object added via the DECORATE lump have a corona added to it?
(I am asking this, because the ceiling lights and chandeliers in DeiMWolf are currently created by using frames from the Heretic chandelier in order to use its corona. Since my nonstandard hack editing will likely not work in GZDooM, I will have to find an alternate way of adding these objects.)

You can attach dynamic lights to these objects. Coronas are not implemented. Maybe later I will add some lens flare support but certainly not the way Legacy is doing it.

Can monsters activate polyobjects?

Yes. Hexen map mode has a monster activation trigger type and since all trigger types can be combined with any action you can do it. If you need both player and monsters to activate it there's the 'monsters can activate' flag. You need an up to date editor though to support it.

Boingo the Clown wrote:How difficult do you think it would be to convert the project over?

It's mainly a case of learning how to use Hexen format line/thing types and scripts. It will take a bit of time and slow the project down, but it's extremely worth it (I converted from vanilla 3½ years ago and the stuff I can do now is amazing compared to before then, even in my first ZDoom wad). It might be easier if you start off with the line types and move onto scripts later (as a script basically consists of these same line types with other stuff added). You'll have the default speeds/delays for doors and lifts when you convert your wad, and make sure you have a browser window open with this page on it (contains all the line types and what they do etc.). The other pages in the wiki contain info on scripting, decorate, mapinfo and other modding stuff.

It might help (if you haven't already done so) playing some of the wads on this page, to see what ZDoom is capable of (plus if you see a feature or effect you like, open the map in your editor and find out how it was done).

It's actually easier to go straight into Zdoom modding rather than from Doom to Zdoom. My cousin learned from me how to make a rather decent map in a single night, and he'd never touched Doom or wads before.

I, on the other hand, took about a month to really get used to using the Hexen map format. Just how the mind works, I suppose.

I am going to attempt a quick and dirty switchover for DeiMWolf in the next couple of days.

If successful, then it will likely switch from being a Legacy project to one for GZDooM.

<<EDIT: Good news. DeiMWolf appears to work in GZDooM, even with no converting! The changing of the viewheight even works via scripting, although it does not work though the console. How strange.

Things that are fouled up and need to be fixed:

Treasure items do not appear. I expected this however, since these were all created with nonstandard hack editing for Legacy. I am certain I can get back using the DECORATE lump.

Food (stimpack) does not appear. That was a surprise.

Hyperdrive dogs: Somebody has been feeding these puppies way too much sugar.

Large flats do not appear. Presumably, flats larger than 64 x 64 are not supported by GZDooM yet.

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