Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Advanced OpenGL source port fork from ZDoom, picking up where ZDoomGL left off.
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NiuHaka
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by NiuHaka »

Okay, so I have trimmed almost a thousand triangles from this model Without compromising too much. That means that md2 would be an option. That also means that I am back to being undecided. *sigh*

Looks like it's time to start posting questions in the Risen and Doomsday forums. You guys have been a huge help. I was in love with ZDoom back in the day so i might just have to end up choosing GZDoom just for that reason. I will also start testing each of the source ports to see which one handles a great number of 3d monsters being rendered on screen at once.

Here are the old and new screenshots of the Doomer with almost a thousand less triangles in the second shot. If you compare the two you will see that here is not much of a difference. His arms and hands have not been touched yet but they will once the shotgun is in.

Old model that has already been shown.
Image


New model with almost a thousand less triangles.
Image
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sitters
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by sitters »

Looks great. :)

no problem what your using for format,

MD2 can have 4096 tris, when the MD3 is lower, it's always convertible to MD2 for
eventually other ports.
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NiuHaka
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by NiuHaka »

Yeah, my concern was that I would be using up to around or maybe slightly more than the md2 tri limit for the cyber demon and the spider mastermind. I have great things in store for those two. I have considered making two versions, a higher poly version and a lower poly version, but uv mapping and texturing two versions for each monster would be a pain in the butt... Unless I only did that for those two bosses. Hmmm...

So yeah, to keep on subject, I'm just trying to figure out this stuff as I create assets because once I start hacking away at the keyboard to get stuff working I might lose interest and I lose interest very easily. The longer I stick to creating the 3d models, the better and more successful this project will be. I already have plans to play through each episode of Doom and maybe moving on to Doom II whenever I feel a little board of making stuff. I also have plans to take breaks from this project every few weeks because I don't want to get burned out either. Also Star Craft II is coming and I have to play that one for a couple of weeks. See how distracted I get? This is why I'm trying to avoid as much swapping of source ports as possible.
DaniJ
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by DaniJ »

Seriously nice work NiuHaka on that Doomguy model. For me I think he could do with putting on a few pounds - remember this is Doomguy!! not Doomgeek ;)

Anyways, yeah the MD2 count is a complete pain in the arse. Not to mention the vertex swimming which pretty much kills stone dead any chance of subtlety in the animation department.

My suggestion is - do not worry about the vertex count. Use DMD. This format allows for multiple LOD levels which can be created automatically using md2tool available from the Doomsday source repo. This will generate 4 progressively less poly-dense versions of the input model. Now, I can very easily update this tool with load support for other vertex-based model formats if I can get the format specs. With that working I can use the existing LOD algorithm to output all LOD levels including level 0, which can then be saved in either DMD or MD2 format for use in ports.

Now, while I'm there I could take a look at the vertex precison and swimming issues with a couple of modifications to the model format but that will require a new DMD 2.0 format (so ports will need to implement support).
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NiuHaka
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by NiuHaka »

Yeah, He will definitely thicken up a bit but that won't happen until i'm texturing him. Textures will thin him out even more. But to be frank, he is thicker/buffer than the average human male and even marine for that matter. I guess we are just used to seeing Schwarzenegger-esk heroes in our video games. But yes, he will thicken up, at least in the arms.

These animation issues with md2 are a very big turn off. I've been searching info on md2, md3 and have a history working with md5 and i'm not completely excited about animating for md3 either. Kind of wish collada or something was supported but that's as pointless as wishing for my fist to turn into gold.

Oh and I will look into DMD for sure. I have been assuming they were identical to md2 for some reason.
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NeuralStunner
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by NeuralStunner »

Wow, I'd say it hasn't really suffered quality loss at all. Nice work!
NiuHaka wrote:as pointless as wishing for my fist to turn into gold.
Besides, you'd be richer but 1-handed, and it'd be harder to model on a computer, I imagine! ;)
Dean Koontz wrote:Human beings can always be relied upon to exert, with vigor, their God-given right to be stupid.
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Mr. X
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by Mr. X »

This looks great! Are you considering making a whole pack?
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NiuHaka
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by NiuHaka »

NeuralStunner wrote:Wow, I'd say it hasn't really suffered quality loss at all. Nice work!
NiuHaka wrote:as pointless as wishing for my fist to turn into gold.
Besides, you'd be richer but 1-handed, and it'd be harder to model on a computer, I imagine! ;)
Actually I would wish for it to stay attached and use that gold fist to threaten someone into becoming my left/right hand.
Mr. X wrote:This looks great! Are you considering making a whole pack?
Well, I don't want to make any promises because I'm sure people have come along promising to do something cool when all of the sudden life comes along and takes them away. I've seen that happen to people and I don't want to be that person... Well, ive been that person but let's pretend I didn't just admit to that.

That being said, yes I'm considering making a whole pack and more. I'm doing this as a hobby and will continue making stuff until I don't want to do it anymore which could be a few years as long as I pace myself just right. Once I'm done with 3d models I'll move on to textures and once i'm done with those I'll move on to levels. I have no interest in making my stuff better than anyone else's nor do I have any delusions that my stuff will be the most uberest poop (I like making up words) to be crapped out of hell. This is all pretty much 100% for myself and my son :) which is why I won't be keeping any of this stuff secret until some special secret day (GO TO HELL TEAM GIZKA!!!).

To prevent this from going too far off topic:
I'm not completely selfish in this endeavor as I have finally decided to just use the dmd format. I'll take it slow with the animation side of things and hopefully end up with something pleasing. This way people can use these in the port of their choice if they wish. If I don't have to do much extra work I might do them in md3 format as well. We will see. no rush. take it easy. listen to some Bob Marley.

Take a look at this. I have the lighting all set up. Finished with the UV mapping and now it's time for my favorite part- the textuing! This setup will be used to bake the lighting into the final texture.
Image
Image
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InsanityBringer
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by InsanityBringer »

Hopefully the texturing will go well. A lot of HRPs (especially the one for Duke Nukem 3D) get the models done REALLY well... but fail horribly at the textures, being way too flat and completely lacking detail making it look quite cartoony. ugh.
DaniJ
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by DaniJ »

I'd suggest you tone down the the strength of your baked-in lighting as that looks too strong and too directionally dominant to me. When lit by dynamic lights (they are in Doomsday at least) and shadowed (Vavoom has just implemented self-shadowing though its very slow) it will look rather odd.

My suggestion would be to use a method similar to baking in ambient occlusion instead with only a very, very slight directional bias.

It would be relatively straight forward to update md2tool to support MD3 as an input format if that would help.
KuriKai
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by KuriKai »

I suggest moving the chest plates down a bit, currently to me they look a bit high, and the waist looks a bit to tall as well. And one last thing, maybe give the muscles on his collar/neck a bit more bulk.
other than that, looking good^^


When you do start to create textures for doom, may I suggest making them for the doom hires texture project^^ link found in my sig
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NiuHaka
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by NiuHaka »

InsanityBringer wrote:Hopefully the texturing will go well. A lot of HRPs (especially the one for Duke Nukem 3D) get the models done REALLY well... but fail horribly at the textures, being way too flat and completely lacking detail making it look quite cartoony. ugh.
Here is to hoping I don't suck at this. :)
DaniJ wrote:I'd suggest you tone down the the strength of your baked-in lighting as that looks too strong and too directionally dominant to me. When lit by dynamic lights (they are in Doomsday at least) and shadowed (Vavoom has just implemented self-shadowing though its very slow) it will look rather odd.

My suggestion would be to use a method similar to baking in ambient occlusion instead with only a very, very slight directional bias.

It would be relatively straight forward to update md2tool to support MD3 as an input format if that would help.
Thanks for the tip. Actually the lighting is the easiest thing to change so any tweaks will only take a few seconds to implement. The lighting will be an added effect to the UV textures which will most likely change as I test the models in game.

About the md2tool supporting md3- It might help if my maya exporter gives me problems but I do like to do as much in maya as I can to give me as much control over the animations as possible.

KuriKai wrote:I suggest moving the chest plates down a bit, currently to me they look a bit high, and the waist looks a bit to tall as well. And one last thing, maybe give the muscles on his collar/neck a bit more bulk.
other than that, looking good^^


When you do start to create textures for doom, may I suggest making them for the doom hires texture project^^ link found in my sig
Thanks for the tip. He is anatomically accurate as far as proportions go (except his arms and legs which are slightly thicker). I think what is throwing his proportions off a bit is the size of his helmet. I have tried shrinking it but that would make an average head unable to fit into the helmet vertically. Also the bottom of the chest plate might seem slightly high because the bottom of the dark shaded areas are where the pectoral muscles would end. This concern would be related to DaniJ's comment about the light being too strong. I have a very subtle ambient light in there that I might kick up a notch to prevent this effect. All this will happen once I start plugging away at the texture.

Oh and about the high-res project. I'll look that stuff over sometime. I scanned over it a couple of days ago but it seemed to me that those were just higher res versions of vanilla dooms textures which is something I'm only sort of going to be doing. Most of the textures I will want to make, if not all of them, will only be loosely based on the vanilla textures.


Looks like this post is going off topic so I will create a new topic where any art assets progress will be posted. Anything else I post in here will be strictly Source Port related. Thank you for the help and the comments.
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Firebrand
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Re: Investigating Source Ports for 3D Monsters/Objects

Post by Firebrand »

Hey! Nice model :).
I'm the ruler of the Fire Power.....
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