GZDoom needs a new programmer

[Daniele C.]

To be perfectly honest, Graf is right about Doom maps not playing nicely with modern cards on current engine implementations. Each surface can have a different texture and there generally aren't any areas you can safely batch together (pretty much because of the first point). This leads to basically the perfect storm for poor performance.

Yes, I also agree on this.

That said, if I were to look at making a new version of ZDoomGL, I'd probably start by looking at virtualized textures and generating a texture atlas at runtime (megatexture tech, if that helps). That way you could batch pretty much whatever geometry you wanted (break the map up into PVS areas or whatever) and focus on optimizing updating those batches for dynamic geometry and streaming in texture data. I'd probably also look at a deferred renderer to make it easier to handle a large number of dynamic lights (and make it somewhat easier to add proper shadows).

Yes I also had the same problem when rendering 2D through OpenGL, and I finally implemented the virtual textures that you described (although not for a FPS).

But that's only if I was actually looking at making a new OpenGL renderer. Personally I don't really have the time nor desire to do that anymore.

Graf is probably worn down like I was when I stopped working on ZDoomGL. Responding to the whims of a community over a couple years does that to you.

He acted poorly because it basically reduces down to two possibilities:

• you ignore the critics you don't like, because you have the power to do so
  you accept the critics and change the software

There is no "act childish and quit the project" possibility in my list above, as you can see, because this is open source.

[timmie]

He acted poorly because it basically reduces down to two possibilities:

• you ignore the critics you don't like, because you have the power to do so
  you accept the critics and change the software

There is no "act childish and quit the project" possibility in my list above, as you can see, because this is open source.

No, there is the third possibility of "he got tired of people ragging on something that he's put over 5 years of his life into". After that length of time criticism wears on you. Even if it's just a little criticism a little bit at a time, it will eventually erode the passion for a project, especially one that's done as a hobby supposedly for fun.

It's why I left the community and haven't really looked back. I loved working on ZDoomGL in the beginning, but eventually I grew tired of the bickering in the community and the constant demands people were putting on me for something I was doing in my spare time (I had just started working at EA at the time, so my spare time was getting more precious by the day and I do also like spending time with my wife). Eventually I realized that I didn't like working on it anymore so I stopped and walked away. At the time, Graf was there to take over with GZDoom. This time is there anyone to take over from him?

[Graf Zahl]

At the time, Graf was there to take over with GZDoom. This time is there anyone to take over from him?

All the time I asked for help nobody came forward.
After I quit nobody came forward.

I think there's nobody qualified out there who doesn't already have his own hobby project and is willing. After the shitstorm that happened I can't say I blame them. Parts of this community really need to realize that you can't push the developers over the edge. They may never come back.

As for my own involvement at this point: You might have noticed that my contributions to ZDoom also have reduced significantly. The things I did I did because I needed them myself (or they took 5 minutes to implement) but that's really it right now. I'm not feeling really motivated to get out the C++ compiler and do serious work on it.

[timmie]

Honestly, there were a number of times that I thought about helping out but could just never get motivated to jump back in =/

But hey, if you're ever in my neck of the woods (ie: Vancouver) feel free to drop me a line and I'll buy you an alcoholic beverage of some sorts.

[Graf Zahl]

But hey, if you're ever in my neck of the woods (ie: Vancouver) feel free to drop me a line and I'll buy you an
alcoholic beverage of some sorts.

Unlikely. Canada is far away and I'm not fond of flying (not to mention that I don't drink alcohol. ) )

[timmie]

Well, the offer still stands. And I'd be willing to substitute this glorious nectar of the gods in place of the alcohol: http://naturalcanecola.com/i/boylans.jpg

[Daniele C.]

He acted poorly because it basically reduces down to two possibilities:

• you ignore the critics you don't like, because you have the power to do so
  you accept the critics and change the software

There is no "act childish and quit the project" possibility in my list above, as you can see, because this is open source.

No, there is the third possibility of "he got tired of people ragging on something that he's put over 5 years of his life into". After that length of time criticism wears on you. Even if it's just a little criticism a little bit at a time, it will eventually erode the passion for a project, especially one that's done as a hobby supposedly for fun.

Umpfh. I I know that feeling, however I am still convinced that Graf's reaction was too much emotive. It's OK, but just he could have taken the same choices after some thinking and more calmly, without causing any trouble to those willing to continue the open source activity - and definitively preserving his reputation.

Here, Graf, I don't want to judge anybody, I am just expressing my thoughts about the way how you (seemingly) stopped working on GZDoom.

For example I can punch somebody offending me if he is in front of me. But later when thinking back I'll realize that perhaps I didn't have right to punch him, and could as well offend him or ignore him. I think that Graf here punched those criticizing him, and also those not criticizing him. And, more importantly, critics are not always bad, and nobody picked up this concept in the discussion (here) so far.

It's why I left the community and haven't really looked back. I loved working on ZDoomGL in the beginning, but eventually I grew tired of the bickering in the community and the constant demands people were putting on me for something I was doing in my spare time (I had just started working at EA at the time, so my spare time was getting more precious by the day and I do also like spending time with my wife). Eventually I realized that I didn't like working on it anymore so I stopped and walked away. At the time, Graf was there to take over with GZDoom. This time is there anyone to take over from him?

Sorry but this sounds funny to me. I recognize that the community feedback can be one of the reasons for developing an open source software, but I don't agree that it has to be the only one or the most important reason to do so. It would be plain stupid to develop exclusively for such feedback, and definitively sick.

[Daniele C.]

At the time, Graf was there to take over with GZDoom. This time is there anyone to take over from him?

All the time I asked for help nobody came forward.
After I quit nobody came forward.

This is sad. Period. Nothing else...because we can't take out any rule from a mass of people called "community", it's a really vague concept.

I think there's nobody qualified out there who doesn't already have his own hobby project and is willing. After the shitstorm that happened I can't say I blame them. Parts of this community really need to realize that you can't push the developers over the edge. They may never come back.

I hope you understand that this reasoning is very weak. I'll explain:

let's say that GZDoom "community" is made up of 4000 people worldwide (I think many more).

Of these 4000 people, there are 200 people (not always the same, but some will come back) which ask for new features and complain about current features on a monthly basis. You can't make all of them happy, this becomes evident after little time.

Of these 200 people, there are 10 of them which tell you that you suck, that you make the weirdest and worst work on the surface of this planet. Maybe they are right, maybe they are frustrated, maybe it's the same user which impersonates different accounts for fun - it can be anything.

HOWEVER, it is up to you (and your critical sense) to accept good suggestions (if you decide so), or to ignore them.

FURTHERMORE, there are other 3800 people which say nothing, and possibly neither are subscribed to forums and mailing lists and anything else, which do like your leadership and your choices, but simply are not coming back to drop any feedback.

These are the "lurking" users, let's say. I think that I was one of them, and that it's about the 90% of GZDoom user base, which is indeed damaged if you (Graf) totally drop development.

So - I am here to say that I understand all possible human reactions to other human reactions, but when talking about software development and open source, I think that some important choices have not to be emotive, for the reasons explained above.

[timmie]

Here's the thing: while these projects are "open source" I wouldn't really call them Open Source. They're done as a hobby. Nothing more than something to satisfy ones curiosity in learning something new. The people working on them don't owe anyone anything, I don't care how many people are part of the community. They're donating their time and knowledge to pursue knowledge and to work on something fun, not follow some ideology and treat it like a job. We provide the source out of the goodness of our hearts because someone might learn something from the lessons we already learned.

Like I said, once it stops being fun to work on it's time to stop. I have more fun at work now (rendering engineer at EA) than I had in the last year I worked on ZDoomGL, even with the long-ish hours and corporate bureaucracy.

We shouldn't have to (and won't) apologize for making these or any decisions over the course of the project. We donate our time and skill and basically get nothing in return. And it's not like we're not looking for adulation, we're looking some common courtesy and not to be viewed as a commodity.

Also, why should Graf be held hostage by his community? What right do they have to demand that of him over something he does for free? That line of thought is bullshit, quite frankly.

[Enjay]

Wise words from one who knows.

And good to see you.

[Graf Zahl]

@Daniele: It's your type which made me quit.

I don't owe you anything and you have no right to demand anything. I don't have any obligation to give you a reason you might understand and I don't care if that's not enough for you. Live with it.

I also have a professional and private life, both of which demand some time of me, too.

[Daniele C.]

@Daniele: It's your type which made me quit.

I don't owe you anything and you have no right to demand anything. I don't have any obligation to give you a reason you might understand and I don't care if that's not enough for you. Live with it.

I also have a professional and private life, both of which demand some time of me, too.

?????? But, have you read what I typed, man? Perhaps it was too long to read it?

I have not said that you owe something to somebody, but that by listening to critics of a few people you damaged only those who liked your work. That's all.

[Daniele C.]

Here's the thing: while these projects are "open source" I wouldn't really call them Open Source. They're done as a hobby. Nothing more than something to satisfy ones curiosity in learning something new. The people working on them don't owe anyone anything, I don't care how many people are part of the community. They're donating their time and knowledge to pursue knowledge and to work on something fun, not follow some ideology and treat it like a job. We provide the source out of the goodness of our hearts because someone might learn something from the lessons we already learned.

I would really like to offend you because you do not seem very smart, but I'll desist. I have not said that open source means that you owe something to people, but that it means that all the work is done for those who like it, and by quitting it you only damage those who like your work. Please read again.

Like I said, once it stops being fun to work on it's time to stop. I have more fun at work now (rendering engineer at EA) than I had in the last year I worked on ZDoomGL, even with the long-ish hours and corporate bureaucracy.

Sure, if you no more like developing open source you shall quit, it's correct. I have criticized the way he quit.

We shouldn't have to (and won't) apologize for making these or any decisions over the course of the project. We donate our time and skill and basically get nothing in return. And it's not like we're not looking for adulation, we're looking some common courtesy and not to be viewed as a commodity.

Ahahahah! Sure, you delete the website, it's OK. I refuse to reply.

Also, why should Graf be held hostage by his community? What right do they have to demand that of him over something he does for free? That line of thought is bullshit, quite frankly.

It is bullshit, but it's absolutely not mine. Shall I split the above text in chunks and explain each one of them for you? I have said that by quitting you damage those who like your work, which are the majority, while only a few might screw up your mood.

PELASE, READ THE TEXT, then reply. It might be a good idea.

[Graf Zahl]

If you don't see what you do here I strongly suggest you take a break from posting and think about it.

Here, I give you some help by temporarily locking this thread.

[Rachael]

Since this discussion continued on Doomworld anyway, and because of the fact that the lock was originally only supposed to be temporary (and I think enough suitable time has passed for that), and also because of the fact that I think this topic deserves to be on less biased turf, I've moved and unlocked it.

There's a lot of emotion invested in here, but if things do get out of hand I will be locking the topic again.

I still very much would like a willing and able programmer to step forward and assist Graf (he might have faults but he REALLY is not that bad of a person!) - and that's what this topic is about. If I see any more discussion from above, I will refer you to the thread on Doomworld, and your post will be binned.

This is the Doomworld thread where said discussion can continue