The situation with 3-d models.

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 18:45

Graf, as I understand, you are waiting for Randy to release the next version of ZDoom before you further expand the 3-d model capabilities for GZDoom.

In its current state, model support for GZDoom is only good for static decorative objects.

If I have a complete monster, and replace all of its 2-d frames with 3-d models, the 3-d model frames will appear to "jump" instantly from one frame to the next, correct? Is it similar to how the original Quake 1 models acted? (ie, no interpolation).

I haven't gotten the time to actually try all this yet because I am still trying to learn the MODELDEF lump. I know it's easy but since I have many things on my mind now, I'm a little bit slow in absorbing so much information hehehe. I need your confirmation.

The reason I am asking this is simply because I am tired of playing the waiting game. I have a horror project which can only be pulled off in GZDoom, and I have designed the monster models. Prior to GZDoom's model support, I would capture the frames of the model in another software and import the frames into my wad as sprites. The game looks great with the 3-d floors and dynamic lights and all, but having the monsters appear like flat paper cut outs (sprites) simply spoils the mood of the game. Since the models were low-poly to begin with, I was thinking of converting them to the .md2 format and use them in GZDoom directly.

If am going to have to wait until Randy releases his new ZDoom, I'm afraid I will NEVER finish the project.

I'd just like ask that if I go on ahead and use 3-d models for my animated monsters with the current GZDoom implementation; when Randy eventually releases the next ZDoom and you start making changes to the model system, will my project be unplayable or screw up or anything?

The actual DECORATE definitions for my monsters aren't complex at all and don't involve mad jumps here and there. They are simple melee monsters. I am guessing that the only downside of using 3-d models to replace my monster sprites is that the animation won't look smooth. I think I can work around it by increasing the monster's walking frames from 4 to 20 or something.

Any comments, Graf? I am not making progress on this little project simply because I am waiting for you to improve the model system, in fear that if I go on right ahead now, when you update GZDoom, my game will be broken. I don't blame you though, because I know you are waiting for Randy.

Thanks.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 18:56

The current model definitions will remain. For certain things they are better than label-based sequences. Interpolation hasn't been added yet. It wouldn't make sense unless the spec was complete.

Regarding the waiting, I think you get a glimpse of the situation I am in. I can't work on this thing as well due to Randy's way of (not) releasing what he has.

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 18:58

Alright then. I think I'll go on right ahead and use 3-d models for my monsters. I really can't wait any longer.

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 19:10

Code: Select all

Model RocketLauncher { 
   path "models\weapons" 
   model 0 "rocket_launcher.md2" 
   skin 0 "w_r_launcher.pcx" 

   frame LAUN A 0 "spawn" 
}

I have some questions:

What is the number after "model" and "skin" (0, in the above example).

What is the 0 after "LAUN A"? And what does "spawn" do?

How would I define a complete walking sequence this way?

A search for "MODELDEF" on the forum didn't reveal much details I'm afraid. :/

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 19:24

The number behind 'mpdel', 'skin' and 'LAUN A' is a model index. You can assign up to 4 models to each frame and that is the index. Some of Doomsday's monster sprite separate the monster into several parts. Normall it should be 0 if you only have one model.
The name 'spawn' behind the frame definition is a label to the model's frame table. MD2 allows model frames to be named and this way you can access them by name.

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 20:10

I'm sorry but I still don't understand how "spawn" can be used.

Can you explain it again?

EDIT:

More questions. In another thread, you posted this piece of code:

Code: Select all

Model SteelCrate 
{ 
   Path "Models/Crate" 
   Model 0 "Steelc.md2" 
   Skin 0 "Steelc.png" 

   Frame COL1 A 0 "frame01" 
} 

Model SteelTransport1 
{ 
   Path "Models/Transport2" 
   Model 0 "Steelt2.md2" 
   Skin 0 "Steelt2.png" 

   FrameIndex COL2 A 0 0 
} 

Model SteelTransport2 
{ 
   Path "Models/Transport1" 
   Model 0 "Steelt1.md2" 
   Skin 0 "Steelt1.png" 

   FrameIndex COL3 A 0 0 
} 

Model SteelTransport3 
{ 
   Path "Models/Transport3" 
   Model 0 "Steelt3.md2" 
   Skin 0 "Steelt3.png" 

   FrameIndex COL4 A 0 0 
}

For some of the FrameIndexes, you have two zeroes. What's that for?

/me's head ASPLODE!

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 21:36

The first one is the model index (should always be 0 if there is one model) and the second one is the frame index in the model. An unanimated model has only one frame which has index 0.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 21:40

Nash wrote:I'm sorry but I still don't understand how "spawn" can be used.

Can you explain it again?

EDIT:

Frames inside a model can be named and are referenced by the 'frame' command.
The maker of this model called one frame "spawn".

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 21:42

Code: Select all

model InsaneCancer
{
path "models/insanecancer"
model 0 "insanecancer.md2"
skin 0 "insanecancer.pcx"

frameindex ICNC A 0 0
frameindex ICNC B 0 1
frameindex ICNC C 0 2
frameindex ICNC D 0 3
}

Is this how a 4-frame walking animation would probably look like?

Edit:
And if I name the frames in the MD2, I can use "walk01" "walk02" etc instead of 0, 1, 2, 3, etc?

Post by **Enjay** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 21:53

I've been looking at the Doomsday models today. I can get some of the simple ones to look alright in GZDoom, but I don't really understand enough about the format to make even slightly complex ones work. My estimate is it would take someone who has sussed out the format about an hour to convert all the static models for use in GZdoom. That person isn't me, but I'm sure someone could DL the JDoom resource pack and do it for the community.

Having played with them for a bit though,I personally am not particularly sold on models at all. I can see a use for a particular piece of architechture that is hard to model using sectors or something though. I converted a couple of columns and kind-of got the keys and some ammo pickups working but I wasn't really convinced that they looked much better than sprites. Then my son came into my office. I always feel that the honesty of a 9 year old is something to take into consideration.

He saw what was on the screen and said "Is that Doom2?"
"Yes" I replied.
"Is it a 3D version?"
"Well some of the sprites have been changed for models" I replied, admiring his observation.
"They don't look as good"
"Oh, why not"
"They just look silly. Not very good. I don't like them."

So then I loaded up JDoom and showed him the Zombies and Imps. He just laughed and called them silly and rubbish. He was especially scornful of the imps - "They just look stupid. They don't look right."

[edit]It just got better. My daughter (12) came in whilst I was playing MAP29 in JDoom and, without prompting, said "eugh, what's wrong with the graphics?" (My son chipped in "They're models") to which she replied "Well, they're not very good are they?".

[/edit]

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 22:23

Smart kids. I can only congratulate you.

But considering that there are people who actually insist on playing Doom with these abominations... It makes my head hurt!

@Nash: Yes, that looks correct.

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 22:42

Classic Doom will never look good, no matter how good the 3-d models are.

But for custom projects though... it's a different story. Especially with my project - the creatures that I will inhabit my maps with simply look horrible in sprite form.

Graf - Thanks. However I have one more question (sorry for asking so many

) - do models work for the player weapon HUD sprite?

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 22:43

No, that hasn't been implemented yet.

Post by **Nash** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 22:45

Got it. Thanks.

DaniJ · Post by **DaniJ** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:22

Heh.

You guys are gonna be in for one hell of shock when jDRP 1.1 is released

Just so you know in advance:

but I'm sure someone could DL the JDoom resource pack and do it for the community.

I don't take kindly to people ripping resources, so leave MY stuff alone (the majority of the released models (including ALL the monsters) were done by Cheb/Team SOG and since I haven't heard from them in years I guess you can do what you want with em).